Disputatio Usoris:JimKillock

Salve!

Salve JimKillock!

Knowledge of Latin is not required here. We thank you for assisting us. Feel free to use English,

German, French, Italian, or Spanish when communicating with other users.

In transcriptionis paginis mos noster non est nomen dare, sed in disputationis paginis

memento recensionibus tuis cum nomine tuo subscribere, litteris impressis --~~~~.

Quibus insertis, nomen tuum et dies ostendetur.

Omnibus utiles nexus: Paginae desideratae (missing pages)

Omnes libri (transcription projects) — Systema naturae (1735) (proofreading project)

Gratum tibi sit tempus apud vicifontes peractum! Vale!

Vicifontium amici

Zyephyrus (disputatio) 14:24, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

span

please wait to add <span id="ws-cover"> in the pages; I will add a parameter for that in the revised Formula:Titulus. just give me some time till monday :) --Barbaking (disputatio) 07:57, 29 Aprilis 2020 (UTC)

Sure :) was just seeing if it works on other exports – I will remove once I've exported one or two. JimKillock (disputatio) 07:58, 29 Aprilis 2020 (UTC)

ok, it was just to be sure :). the template will have a parameter Frons= to specify the (eventual) cover page, like this (seems to work). now, we have to understand why the export fails with pdf, and how/if we can center the resulting image... --Barbaking (disputatio) 08:26, 29 Aprilis 2020 (UTC)

Community_Tech/Ebook_Export_Improvement

hi, I just wanted to inform you that at the link above on Meta they are looking for comments or feedbacks about the export of Wikisource contents as ebooks; since you seemed interested in the matter, feel free to join the conversation there if you want :) have a nice day, --Barbaking (disputatio) 11:57, 28 Maii 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Will take a look. JimKillock (disputatio) 12:30, 17 Iunii 2020 (UTC)

Colloquia Erasmi

Salve! Optime fecisti quod transcriptionem Colloquiorum aggressus es, quo in opere libenter te adjuvabo. Qui in Vicifonte tiro sim, dubius sum: https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Disputatio_Libri:Erasmi_Colloquia_Familiaria_Et_Encomium_Moriae.djvu Etiam nescio quam ob rem efficere non possum ut alter dialogus in propria pagina appareat: https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Colloquia_familiaria/Epithalamium_Petri_Aegidii --Quasus (disputatio) 19:10, 16 Septembris 2020 (UTC)

Formula:At Salve Quaese! Et multas gratias! Corrigo hoc paginam, et addere aliquae notae formatae. JimKillock (disputatio)

We sent you an e-mail

Hello JimKillock,

Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email surveys@wikimedia.org.

You can see my explanation here.

MediaWiki message delivery (disputatio) 18:52, 25 Septembris 2020 (UTC)

De italico

Typographi me docebant numquam voces Graecas scriptura italica (sic) designare; nam scriptura Graeca usitata ipsa per se italica est. In libro, quem transcribimus, verba Graeca non italico designata sunt, — ipsa scriptura italica est. Sed si putas sic recte esse, cum continuero, designabo Graeca italico. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 20:03, 17 Martii 2021 (UTC)

@Demetrius Talpa: Puto tu recte dicis; formae litterae in libro sunt quasi-italicae, sed nescio quomodo litterae graeciae sint. Non est magni momenti! Possumus eligere formam te putare recte esse. Et multas gratias! JimKillock (disputatio) 20:08, 17 Martii 2021 (UTC)

Ora Maritima: English or Latin?

I've added Sonnenschein's Ora Maritima to Wikisource. I accidentally added it to the English namespace. I'm not sure I was wrong, though. Ora Maritima has a lot of exercises and so on that are written in English. So I'm not sure whether to view it as a Latin book with English bits or an English book about Latin. What do you think? I'd like to get this resolved before I start editing the pages, because I think migrating it across namespaces will be a pain if there are a lot of pages to move. Persimmon and Hazelnut (disputatio) 15:30, 7 Octobris 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Persimmon and Hazelnut: I think the case is arguable either way; things are a bit more relaxed here but there are more users at en.ws; maybe ask on their forum before pressing ahead? Either way I will try to give you a bit of help with it. --JimKillock (disputatio) 20:36, 9 Octobris 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hello! How are you?

My name is Erick, I'm from Brazil, and I have added this work by Bartolomeu de Gusmão at the Multilingual Wikisource, since it is pretty much a French-Latin bilingual book. You might find it interesting and, if possible, I would like to know if the writing "Bartholomæus de Gusmão" (at the "Scriptor" page) is correct. He was a quite fascinating character and also mastered the Latin-language (I have tried to find more Latin-language versions of his works online, but to no avail). I've found the Latin-language quite interesting, and I hope to learn it enough for reading and writing some day (but grammar lessons don't really work with me) to edit here and in the Latin Wiki. Cheers! Erick Soares3 (disputatio) 00:11, 16 Novembris 2024 (UTC)

Epistulae

Hi, I'm asking for help/ideas here. Sorry for not writing in Latin, but creating original Latin texts is a bit out of my league. I got a book with scans and transcriptions of letters between Johann Scopoli and Carl Linnae, two famous biologists. I've started transcribing these letters (only those of Scopoli, so far) at Epistulae ad Carolum Linnaeum (Ioannes Antonius Scopoli). I am wondering, since there is a lot of letters if there's a better way to organise them (I still have to do ie. text placement on the already transcribed ones). I was thinking to maybe make a disambiguation type page which would contain a list of all letters? Or would standalone pages be more appropriate? Anyhow, thanks for your response! Best regards, A09 (disputatio) 21:00, 1 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, yes usually an index page with links to the letters would make sense. See Epistulae (Marcus Tullius Cicero) for example. Is the source in the public domain or only the contents of the letters btw? JimKillock (disputatio) 07:13, 2 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Even though the book isn’t old, I believe they are public domain. Scans do not renew copyright in Slovenia and a known author died before 1945, so they should be in public domain (book was made in Slovenia, hence Slovene copyright laws apply). Translations are likely copyrightable, as is the introduction. Don’t worry, I’m not uploading these, just letters :) If anything is wrong, please let me know. Best regards, A09 (disputatio) 09:42, 2 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I was just wondering whether there was a reason for not uploading the source document. If this is included and linked, this helps with provenance, double proof reading and long term error correction. JimKillock (disputatio) 13:41, 2 Maii 2025 (UTC)

I believe I could upload scanned scans of letters, but once in the future since I'm a bit occupied with other more important things onwiki. Thanks for your help! Stay safe, A09 (disputatio) 13:45, 2 Maii 2025 (UTC)

I uploaded the first letter at File:Epistula ad Carolum Linnaeum (1 Septembris 1760).pdf, but I have a little problem when referencing it at Epistula ad Carolum Linnaeum (1 Septembris 1760) (throws an error that the index page wasn't created yet, which is expected). Since not the whole book is in Latin nor is in public domain, is there a way to connect both the Wikisource page with the scanned PDF? Thanks a lot, A09 (disputatio) 19:56, 2 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, yes this all very non-obvious. I have linked the transcription; you use "Liber:filename"; and then add at least <pagelist/> into the fields. Pagelist has lots of options, so you can exclude pages and number them in specific ways.

Then, on the compiled public pages, you need to reference the pages you want from the Liber you want. You can probably use multiple Liberi, or else you can add pages to your PDF by adding new versions to WP Commons on the same file page (ie, replace the file, rather than create new copies with new file names). JimKillock (disputatio) 07:03, 3 Maii 2025 (UTC)

I see you have done most of this at Liber:Scopoli-1777 Introductio ad historiam naturalem.pdf, except for setting up a public / compiled version. usually the transcription is not viewed as the "final" product; the pages are set up as just HTML, eg De Principe which compiles the transcription made at Liber:Nicolaus Machiavellus De Principe.pdf; this allows export and easier reading, etc. Hope that helps! Also pages of a finished book need to sit underneath the main book page, so that export to epub PDF etc works correctly. JimKillock (disputatio) 07:15, 3 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks for your response! A09 (disputatio) 07:20, 3 Maii 2025 (UTC)

Foenix and Congestorium Artificiose Memorie

Thank you so much for your interest and assistance. With the help of Google Translate and other ai tool, the text now makes sense.

I hope you're not too busy and we can manage to finish it within a month or two.

Best regards 82.167.147.5 22:36, 19 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, no problem and sure, the timescale depends really how much prep you can do on the pages before I proof them. The more coherent they are, the easier it is for me to tidy them up. I appreciate tho it might be a lot of work for you to get to the standard you had for the first couple of pages. Let me know how you want to approach it; I do have other things on (eg, De Principe, but if the pages are fairly tidy, doing two or three of pages a day on average is quite possible. JimKillock (disputatio) 06:27, 20 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Hi,

Here a another copy of the book Foenix

• https://archive.org/details/ita-bnc-in2-00001198-001/page/n11/mode/1up

195.47.234.225 08:43, 22 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

It's slow going, but we're making progress. Have a look when you get a chance. 82.167.147.5 11:50, 28 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Will do, can you take a look at page 30 again when you have a chance? The second part got forgot :) JimKillock (disputatio) 11:52, 28 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I am cross referencing the text using the other copies as guide. So it will take a while.

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix
3. Phoenix

195.47.234.225 07:54, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

by the way this is the clearest copy to work on. So I need your help on this page 20

Liber:Foenix (Petrus Ravennas).djvu 195.47.234.225 08:03, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Do you want to pause and transfer the work to the new book, rather than work on two copies? It seems a waste of effort to transcribe both, if this version is clearer and easier. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:43, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Well this is done. So go ahead and check transcription and no need to work on the new book

• Liber:Foenix. Domini Petri Ravennatis memoriae magistri - (Petrus) (IA hin-wel-all-00002799-001).pdf

195.47.234.225 09:24, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I am using the other copy to find mistake in the first one 195.47.234.225 09:39, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

OK, no problem, I will leave to you and work on the long edition. JimKillock (disputatio) 09:46, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Do you know the copy below contains two book in one (Foenix and Congestorium Artificiose Memorie).

So, I am trying to finish (Foenix) first.

• Liber:Foenix. Domini Petri Ravennatis memoriae magistri - (Petrus) (IA hin-wel-all-00002799-001).pdf

195.47.234.225 10:08, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I spotted you have split these up. The second on looks a lot more troublesome, with the gothic font. Is it all set like that? And if so, is there another, easier copy to work off? JimKillock (disputatio) 10:10, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

There is another copy for (Congestorium Artificiose Memorie)

Liber:Congestorium artificiose memorie ... - V.P.F. Joa(n)nis Romberch de Kyrspe. Regularis obseruantie predicatorie- (IA hin-wel-all-00002875-001).pdf 195.47.234.225 10:15, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

That looks about the same, in terms of typsetting, unless I have missed something.

There is also a critical edition recently published, access to which would help. See this sample of the book. You could contact the author via this page and ask if they would be prepared to share their raw transcription? They might appreciate the interest and share the pain of doing this, and wish to save you the time. JimKillock (disputatio) 10:19, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Not sure if the author agree due to copyright by the publisher 195.47.234.225 10:38, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Sure, except:

• the raw transcript is a literal copy of a public domain text and therefore not subject to copyright
• as we would match the text to the PD document, this would ensure no copyright was infringed

In any case, there is no harm in asking (and a lot to gain). JimKillock (disputatio) 10:40, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Also, another copy with more gothic font just in case

• https://books.google.com/books?id=6XVSN-GYrl0C&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

195.47.234.225 10:47, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I can contact the author, if you prefer - let me know! JimKillock (disputatio) 10:51, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Yes that would be great 195.47.234.225 10:54, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Again, thank you for your support and assistance. 195.47.234.225 10:12, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I noticed that you left a tag on pages 23 and 24. I reviewed those sections against another source on page 21 and corrected some error. However, I'm unsure how to proceed with the other comment in the text and would appreciate your guidance. 82.167.147.5 21:59, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Thanks; the main issue now is all the medieval style references, which need to be comprehensible for a modern reader. This will take some research and checking but it is not necessarily for you to do. JimKillock (disputatio) 22:06, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Excellent. When you have a moment, kindly take a look at page 21
82.167.147.5 22:15, 29 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I successfully removed hidden characters (such as hidden hyphens) from the text resulting from OCR processing.

I will now begin working on the second copy of the book "Liber:Foenix (Petrus Ravennas).djvu"

Second time's the charm. 82.167.147.5 02:17, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Where do I do the proofing for Congestorium Artificiose Memorie? Or is that paused?

On Foenix, I will work through the various pages marked as problematic.

Re page 21 of the second version of Foenix, I don't understand the purpose of me proofing a second copy of this book, could you explain what you are trying to do?

I can work on one copy of a book, but I cannot help proofread two versions of the same thing. If it helps you, then you can do what you like of course, but my help has to be limited to one copy of each text. JimKillock (disputatio) 07:54, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I don't know why some of the pages marked as problematic. So I am trying find out from other copy 195.47.234.225 11:09, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Sure. I have marked them as problematic because they have contractions that I don't understand, or because the characters are sometimes hard to read - sit and fit look very similar, meaning "it would be" and "it makes", roughly. I am going through the contractions asking ChatGPT or Claude what it makes of them. This is a task for me, which is easiest done this way. It is probably easiest if you let me reduce these to the very difficult to solve issues. There is one, at 29, where the contraction e. is unclear. This is his memory aid, but at this point you may need a Latin specialist and a mnemnonics specialist to make an educated guess! JimKillock (disputatio) 11:15, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

That is done now, first pass complete. One query, and maybe some assumptions on the abbreviations relating to the mnemnonics, particulary rotunda (.r.) which might be double checked. JimKillock (disputatio) 11:39, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

You might find ChatGPT or Claude helpful for transcription the Congestorium Artificiose Memorie 82.167.147.5 14:12, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Hi, see my comments at Disputatio:Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae - the OCR tools here do a really good job, if you choose the right one. JimKillock (disputatio) 14:16, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Just upload a page to ChatGPT and see what it comes up with!. Also ask for translation 82.167.147.5 14:21, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

If this was what you have been doing on the other pages of this book then the results are very poor compared with Tesseract OCR which is nearly spot on JimKillock (disputatio) 14:22, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I can btw give some simple instructions for importing and cleaning up the Tesseract OCR, which would be a lot of help for me to proof the result: Basically:

• Import OCR
• Using an external text tool, search and replace ſ for {{s}}; remove the line breaks and hyphen character (join the hyphened words together)
• replace qꝫ with {{que}}, ⁊ with {{tet}} etc

JimKillock (disputatio) 14:19, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Just upload a page to ChatGPT and see what it comes up with!. Also ask for translation 82.167.147.5 14:22, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

As above, looking at the prior work you had done, I don't think it is very helpful JimKillock (disputatio) 14:23, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Whatever you did on Foenix was pretty decent, but the results on the second book are borderline nonsense at time. JimKillock (disputatio) 14:24, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

It might just surprise you 82.167.147.5 14:26, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I just tried for page 56, which I did withTesseract

I got this:

simit doctois sollicitarione dum adolescentior

esset in unum congesti libellum qui inde Lon-

gestovium artificiose nemozatioe nomen sorti-

tus est. Interposita itaq; per me appellatione

cum devolveretur ad S. Apostolicam causā

Jacobi hochstrassen inquisitoria contra *Spe-

culum ocularezibq; inter cardinei cœtus vi-

ros pecularius committeretur / veluti iuriscon-

sultissimis: & quod præcipuum erat: quia inter

Theologicum agmen facile primatum tribit ve-

dicasset vir alter eque acu (absq; iniuria di-

cetur) quid nam fideri archodoceæ consentane

um: quidue dissimum internoscere. Cumq;

ille reverendissimus pater & procurator age-

ret apud Episcopum Spirē. factus apud

Reuerendiff. Domi. tuam sollicitator con-

sumptis aliquoties vigiliis abs te institit:

dum indices vel rectius horarum edes tuas fre-

quentares: tuo potissimum erant: quæ longe

noscē molestiam nonnulli alleviarent: Impzi-

mis quidem locorum arte Symonidis compa-

ratio optaram in sum amplo spacioso perspicu-

o tuo cum dissertinijs ad rem ipsam necessariijs

exornatissimo palatio. Ne modo ut Liceronis

est præcepto centum inibi concederentur lo-

caverum penetrare que Ioan. M. Ischaelis

& Petrus ravennas: atq; alij suadent facillimē

illuc coniurare liceret. Si quippe religiosorū

domus Theologorum: Iuristarum / & Medicorū

/ Philosophorum: id genus hominum maiore

nōs ingredi liberet quatenus inibi nobis loca

vendicemus a Palatio tuo volefcius nulla ra

Tesseract picks up all of the weird characters, much, much better. JimKillock (disputatio) 14:30, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Here is a table showing a comparison for pge 57. Tesseract is doing much better and would save us both a lot of time, I am certain. JimKillock (disputatio) 15:23, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, Marta came back to say that she is contractually obliged not to share her transcription.

I played a bit more with the two transcription tools. I am not anti CHatGPT or anything, I use it for various things, but it is doing a lot worse than the scanning tools we have. This second book is a lot more old fashioned and uses a lot more medieval scribal contractions, which ChatGPT is not picking up (along with some other errors). See this edit for example, where I replaced what you were able to do with ChatGPT with a Tesseract transcription.

If we go with Tesseract, and you can do the initial work, then I can commit to finishing the pages that way. If I have to work from ChatGPT output, without it being substantially cleaned up, I fear that will be too much work as I will just end up re-scanning the pages. Considering how long this book is as well, I will probably have to bow out at this point. JimKillock (disputatio) 17:55, 30 Iunii 2025 (UTC)

I see your point, and you’re right. Also, I have a crazy idea — it just might work I need time to test it. 82.167.147.5 03:51, 1 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE4xEzFGSU8 82.167.147.5 04:01, 1 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

That might be a stretch! I am njot sure it is needed, the error rate is not so high. The text we have is very close in style to what is known as a Latin Incunabulum; ie early printed book, and the Tesseract Latin-Incunabula engine is trained on these kinds of books and fonts already.

There is another thing we can automate tho, which is the search and replace. Since a lot of the work is basically finding the characters long-s and son on, and replacing with a template, eg {{s}}, {{et}}, {{tet}}, {{qui}}, and so on, we could get a Wikimedia bot to work through the pages on the book, and do all the replacements.

That would cut the time significantly, I think. JimKillock (disputatio) 07:01, 1 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Note that I am working on a bot for this. JimKillock (disputatio) 12:46, 1 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

OK, so the folks at Wikisource helped write a js to do this for us. You can find my version of it at Usor:JimKillock/scribal.js. The first line of Usor:JimKillock/common.js also needs to be included, to summon it. What this does is to clean up the output from the scan on the first save of the new page only. This should speed up the process immensely. JimKillock (disputatio) 22:46, 1 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

okay, have look at page 52 and 53

Is this the right way to do it?

Just to confirm—are ¶ and ꝰ meant to be part of the text?

Also, it seems ꝰ short for "us" 82.167.147.5 02:07, 2 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Is this the right way to do it? - this looks good yes, altho the script would not work of course, as the page was already in existence.

I corrected some templates which did not exist / were not needed. If in doubt, use {{scr|origchar|result}}

I will vibecode a bash script to do the same job as the js tool, for the existing raw pages

Just to confirm—are ¶ and ꝰ meant to be part of the text? Yes and yes

Also, it seems ꝰ short for "us" - It is what later became a ' mark - so it just means "something missing follows". So we use {{Scr| ꝰ|us}} JimKillock (disputatio) 07:29, 2 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

(we can add an us template tho, for readability etc - but not all 9's will be us), so IDK if we should transform it automatically) JimKillock (disputatio) 08:30, 2 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

In fact it seems you are right and this is always -us, so I added it into the scripts. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:51, 2 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Here is a bash script that will replace the characters automatically, not sure if you are familiar with using terminal scripts etc but it is not difficult. If made executable, and named as below, it would run with

./wikimedia_transform.sh filename.txt JimKillock (disputatio) 08:16, 2 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Checking in, if you want to help (and don't want to add transcriptions) you can format and check pages up to page 100. --JimKillock (disputatio) 16:57, 3 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Update, I have nearly done the first pass. Some of the layouts look quite hard work tho, with text on the sie o upside down. These might need to be images? SVGs? I am not sure. Let me know if you are still working on this, and how you feel able to help. JimKillock (disputatio) 15:24, 4 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, I have listed the pages that I hope you or your friends can help format at Disputatio:Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae. Be good to hear from you, and know if you are still interested in finishing this project. JimKillock (disputatio) 11:12, 5 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

I'm really sorry I haven’t been in touch—I was sick over the past few days and needed some time to rest and recover. 82.167.147.5 11:33, 5 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

No problem at all, hope you feel better. Let me know if you ate able to help with the page formatting. JimKillock (disputatio) 11:35, 5 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Feeling better now—working on fixing the Header 2A00:5400:E139:99B:844E:A3D1:3C0D:7173 20:44, 7 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

I have create a table for the pages

Disputatio:Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae 91.198.251.56 10:19, 8 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

That's great, good to see progress on these. JimKillock (disputatio) 16:37, 8 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Hi

Two templates are required for this page 216 and possibly others.

• "Template:Upside down"
• "Template:Transform-rotate"

2A00:5400:E139:99B:79A7:F703:B7EE:932E 23:20, 9 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

OK, copied across to {{Inversus}} {{Rotatus}}; and also {{Dsiplay}} was needed, at {{Ostensio}} JimKillock (disputatio) 06:28, 10 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Inversus, display: inline-block; transform: rotate(90deg); JimKillock (disputatio) 06:34, 10 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Rotate has something wrong / missing, will investigate later or tomorrow JimKillock (disputatio) 06:40, 10 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

👍 2A00:5400:E139:99B:C075:F9CC:DBAD:4791 15:57, 10 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

OK, it is working, in fact, but you need sytax like <span style="font-size: 1.4em; {{Rotatus|0}}">∫</span> <span style="font-size: 1.4em; {{Rotatus|20}}">∫</span> <span style="font-size: 1.4em; {{Rotatus|40}}">∫</span> <span style="font-size: 1.4em; {{Rotatus|60}}">∫</span> giving ∫ ∫ ∫ ∫. See the documentation at Formula:Rotatus JimKillock (disputatio) 08:06, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

you can also just use Formula:Littera rotata JimKillock (disputatio) 08:17, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Great 2A00:5400:E139:99B:3546:C2D1:DC9E:345B 13:24, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Before I start splitting the book into chapters, please take a look at the table of contents I’ve created and share your feedback

Disputatio:Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae 82.167.150.133 17:26, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, my only comment was to use forward slashes. Are you OK with the Wikimarkup around spltting pages, chapters etc? JimKillock (disputatio) 17:27, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

not a problem 2A00:5400:E139:99B:C543:505F:553A:813E 17:37, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Like that Conclusio 2A00:5400:E139:99B:C543:505F:553A:813E 18:14, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Have you thought of a fitting title for the opening section of the book?

from page 53 to 61 2A00:5400:E139:99B:C543:505F:553A:813E 18:18, 11 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

What do we have? Some poems (Poema) and some dedicatory letters (Epistolae). That would do for now I think? They can always be moved later, we could also check how Marta has done it, altho this is not obvious from the introductory chapters and contents page. JimKillock (disputatio) 06:37, 12 Iulii 2025 (UTC)

Liber:Ars Memorativa (Leporeus).djvu 37.106.15.196 00:39, 2 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

Ars Memorativa

Welcome back! I noticed you haven't been working on the Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae lately. It's perfectly fine to pause and take breaks from time to time.

In the meantime, would you be interested in working on another book together?

Liber:Ars Memorativa (Leporeus).djvu Best Regret 37.106.2.89 03:40, 20 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, will take a look at this in a week or so, am busy this month tho. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:22, 26 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

Great 91.198.251.56 07:00, 27 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

So are you ready? 37.105.235.52 10:16, 29 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, no I have some other things I need to do but will take a look mid September. JimKillock (disputatio) 12:34, 29 Augusti 2025 (UTC)

I hope you are doing well.

Are you ready now? ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 10:16, 23 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Hi there I can make a start and help but my time is a bit limited. Which of these is the higher priority? The shorter text might be more realistic. JimKillock (disputatio) 18:43, 26 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

The Ars Memorativa of Gulielmus Leporeus of Avallon may be accomplished in a short time. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 07:12, 27 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Just apply the same approach you used last time to the entire book, and I’ll go through it to make adjustments. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 07:19, 27 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

OK. Will start on this. Something to think about, especially if we go back to the longer text, we could consider doing a "time / skills swap"; for example I have a book here Liber:Nos in schola latine loquimur - Ars latine loquendi.pdf; and I have a text which is already transcribed which I need to copy paste back. I can provide the text in wiki format, and the page numbers are clearly marked. I could ask you to do the copy paste work in return for the time proof reading pages at Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae. we don't have to be exact about the time, but could let erach other know a rough estimate of time given; this would help me feel like I am able to progress my projects while helping you, rather than having to choose not to do my own projects in order to help you. Let me know what you think. JimKillock (disputatio) 10:58, 28 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Agreed on "time / skills swap" for both books

• Ars Memorativa
• Congestorium Artificiosae Memoriae

in exchange for transcribing

• Nos in schola latine loquimur Ars latine loquendi

~2025-68940-4 (talk) 03:00, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Ah great! it is just copy pasting; I will create a document with the text that needs moving over shortly. Thank you very much :) JimKillock (disputatio) 06:16, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

15 pages everyday maybe by the next month it will be done. ~2025-63305-8 (talk) 08:50, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, the text to copy is here: Nos in schola latine loquimur - Ars latine loquendi - please note, use this text, rather than trasnscribing anew, as it is already proofed. JimKillock (disputatio) 15:55, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Don’t worry, it’s easy for me to make a new transcription, better than just copying another text.~2025-68940-4 (talk) 16:49, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Sure, but then I have extra working validating it? The text I have is checked. Unless you have a way to check your work against the copy I have? JimKillock (disputatio) 20:15, 30 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

I have completed 15 pages using my current approach. Could you review and validate it to determine if I should proceed further? ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 01:11, 1 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

https://www.diffchecker.com/text-compare/ ~2025-63305-8 (talk) 06:02, 1 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, Ok carry on, you are doing a good job with the formatting. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:48, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

I want to use Overfloat image template on page number 7 but I didn't find it. ~2025-63305-8 (talk) 10:11, 1 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Sure I can copy this across. I will take a look at the page and what you need to achieve. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:49, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

That's now available using {{Imago superposita}}. I haven't tested it, and please remember that text renders differently according to user preferences, so this will be very inexact. In the case of this title page, using Alt text could be a perfectly acceptable or preferable way of showing the page text and illutration. JimKillock (disputatio) 09:57, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Done.

Liber:Nos in schola latine loquimur - Ars latine loquendi.pdf ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 14:11, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

another en:Template:Scan page link is needed ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 14:15, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Added Formula:Nexus ad facsimile; but it might break, there are a lot of sub templates by the look of it. If you try it somewhere I can debug it and add whatever else is missing. JimKillock (disputatio) 17:05, 4 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

I would like to include it in the table of contents to make it easier for me to review and jump to any chapter.

Table of Contents ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 01:10, 5 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Can you set this up where you want it to work, eg put the transcription pages with the ToC on Liber page to list the contents, or make a book page with the ToC displayed on the page, so we can see if it works? The template applies differently to all three different spaces, transcription page; Liber (transcription project) page; and mainspace (book), so we can only test it if it is displayed in all three contexts. JimKillock (disputatio) 07:43, 5 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

I didn't understand what do you want me to do ~2025-63305-8 (talk) 11:47, 7 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

The template is designed to work on content transcluded on Index (Liber) pages (see en:Template:Scan_page_link. I'm assuming you want to use the contents page on the Liber / Index page. It behaves differently when transcluded on the normal book pages. So you should set up the contents page transclusion on Liber:Nos in schola latine loquimur - Ars latine loquendi.pdf and also at Nos in schola latine loquimur - Ars latine loquendi so we can test it is all working (or not). JimKillock (disputatio) 16:49, 7 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

I added it but it does not seem to be working; can you check and confirm? JimKillock (disputatio) 18:40, 7 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Yes it does not work ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 23:24, 7 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Two One formulae to fix?

Noticed your talk page is listed in Categoria:Formulae. Searched through the templates used on the talk page and found two with misplaced references to the category:

</noinclude>[[Categoria:Formulae]]

Oh, wait, Formula:Exp is a redirect, and not a problem.

Could you fix up Formula:Textus expunctus to put the category inside the noinclude

[[:Categoria:Formulae]]</noinclude>

and then check your talk page disappears from Categoria:Formulae ? Shenme (disputatio) 04:10, 3 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

I think that is done, thank you! JimKillock (disputatio) 17:39, 3 Septembris 2025 (UTC)

Transcription request: Ars_Memorativa, Josephus Publicius

If it’s not too much trouble, could you please take some time to transcribe this book? You don’t need to make an exact transcription — just enough to get things started so that table of contents, images and decorative drop caps can be added. I understand this is quite a big request, and I truly appreciate your patience, effort, and willingness to help make the content more accessible and visually.

• Liber:Ars_Oratoria._Ars_Epistolandi._Ars_Memorativa._(Publicio).djvu

~2025-68940-4 (talk) 22:57, 14 Octobris 2025 (UTC

I am only interested in the Ars Memorativa section (page 111 onward), in order to maintain a clear and focused scope. The remainder of the book may be considered at a later stage, if time permits. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 01:37, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Hi, can we keep topics to topic? You can request this with a new topic on my user page or on the discussion page for the book. Otherwise it gets really hard to keep track of what we are discussing and where to find things. JimKillock (disputatio) 05:27, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

The long and short of it is that it depends if you can help me in return. Some point I may find this a bit much, but for now it is OK and I do have other tasks that you could do in return in a skills - a time swap, even after you finish the Nos in Schola Latine Loquimur textbook.

I ran a couple of test pages of your new text through the OCR tool and they seem to have gone quite well.

I am less keen on only doing part of the text though. I don't like leaving projects half done, but also I think the work itself is likely to work as a unit from a little reading around.

I think we should complete the current Ars Memorativa book first though before considering taking on another one.

At the moment with the current book it takes me about 30-40 mins per page to correct the scan and check my work for errors via ChatGPT. I have time this week so I might clear up the text by the end of the week. So that would be about 30 hours work for the current text, hopefully by the end of the week, how is it going on your side? JimKillock (disputatio) 05:50, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

So far, the first part—copying and pasting the text into the corresponding pages—has been completed, which fulfills my part of our time and skills exchange. In addition, I’ve developed a script that automatically generates a table of contents for each chapter. And because I don’t like leaving projects unfinished, I’m now working on validating each page, which is the final step to complete the project.

I’d also like to take this opportunity to thank you for the excellent job you did transcribing Ars Memorativa Gulielmi Leporei Avallonensis—it really made the process much smoother and the content far more readable.

For the next book, Ars Oratoria. Ars Epistolandi. Ars Memorativa., could you please use the script to extract the entire text for the whole book, just like you did before with Nos in schola Latine loquimur? I’ll take care of copying and pasting the extracted text into the corresponding pages afterward. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 07:22, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Because this will be a long project I think we should be clear and accountable with each other, so that the exchange is a fair one. What I am asking is whether you have spent or will have spent about 30 hours on the school book. The easiest way to estimate this is to estimate how long page scanning / and page validation takes for you per page.

If your work on the book takes longer than 30 hours, that is fine, and I will match it on the next transcription project. Once done, you can help me with another simple transcription job.

For me, it was taking about an hour per page but this has reduced to about 30-40 minutes. So I've estimated I've given you about 30 hours (it's probably more but don't worry about that)

On Ars Oratoria. Ars Epistolandi. Ars Memorativa, you could do the page extraction yourself, you don't need me to do this. You would however need to set up the scripts in your user page, and remember to choose the correct OCR model, but that is all. I can give you instructions on this if you like.

Otherwise I will get to this after I've done with the current book. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:06, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

I’m not completely sure, but it seems to be over 30 hours.

On 3 October 2025, I worked on transcribing pages from 176 to 315 between 01:26 and 23:14, which took roughly 11 hours including some breaks. You can verify this in the page history.

Now I’ll take my time to carefully validate the text on each page — hopefully one chapter per day.

It’s no big deal — I’m glad to help! And if there’s another simple transcription task similar to the previous one, I’d be happy to assist. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 10:55, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Once again, thank you for your kind assistance. ~2025-68940-4 (talk) 11:00, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much, that is good to hear! I'll wait until we are done with Nos In Schola before suggesting anything else. Do you want me to set up scripts in your user space so you can start work on Ars Oratoria. Ars Epistolandi. Ars Memorativa? Once they are added, you can just use the inbuilt OCR tools, and they will save with my templates for the scribal shorthand. Even tho you have a temporary account, this should all work. I can also give you screenshots and a guide so you can do the scanning. Let me know. JimKillock (disputatio) 11:21, 15 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks for transcribing Ars Memorativa Gulielmi Leporei Avallonensis. With the help of AI translation, I’m finally able to dive into its insights and discover the wisdom hidden within its pages.

I’m still moving forward with my current task, though a bit slowly—about one chapter each day—as I also continue transcribing another memory book. It’s so much easier working with the printed text than trying to make sense of the handwritten one!

By the way, your skill in reading and transcribing handwritten manuscripts is truly impressive. That’s such a rare talent, and it really brings these old works back to life.

You should definitely keep focusing on that—it’s a gift that few people have! ~2025-30550-29 (talk) 00:27, 3 Novembris 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope you don't mind me saying that I can tell when AI has helped you with your messages! They are a bit too fulsome in their praise, which is one of the dangers of these tools, they mislead you about the strength of your own talents.

I noticed you'd found a new memory book to transcribe. I can certainly take a look at this when you are done. As you say working with more modern printing is much easier. Even seventeenth and eighteenth century books are easier than the fifteenth / early sixteenth century texts you have been interested in.

I will keep going with the Ars Oratoria. Ars Epistolandi. Ars Memorativa, but need to try some other things meantime just to take a bit of a break. JimKillock (disputatio) 09:26, 3 Novembris 2025 (UTC)

Ecclesiastical Latin

Hello. I've been taking a break. I was just looking at the formulae you were working on for letters. Still struggling with them a bit, but I will persevere.

I was wondering if you had given any consideration to a way to display accents in "Church Latin." These are the acute marks showing where to place the accent when reading aloud, and are present in missals and many prayer books.

á é í ó ú ǽ æ Æ Ǽ Œ œ and of course the Versicle and Response glyphs, ℣ and ℟ , and ✠ .

Here is an example page: Pagina:Missale_Romanum_1862.djvu/301

In a missal page like the above, some of the text, specifically the rubrics (instructions), do not include the accents, only the text meant to be spoken.

These glyphs (and their display) is I think different from the abbreviations in incunabula and early printed works. I think it will be a while before I am comfortable displaying the abbreviations (instead of their expanded transcriptions) to read, but the accents are helpful when reading, even when not reading aloud.

I have spent some time recently hunting for fonts that include all these glyphs.

It will be important to be able to specify such fonts that include all the relevant glyphs in displaying them on WS or when downloading them in an epub; do you know if that sort of thing is doable here? (I think a lot of it is a browser problem.)

Should we move or copy these discussions to someplace more publicly visible? I would suggest the Category you created, unless that is supposed to be limited to discussions about the Category itself. Or anywhere else suitable.

Did you ever find the unicodes for ℣ and ℟ ? Would the results of my research into these various glyphs and the fonts that display them be useful to you? Laura1822 (disputatio) 20:56, 23 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Laura1822

There is a lot here! And yes we can find a better place to discuss this.

(1) Church accents: these you want to preferve in the mainspace (not transcription) pages that people see, so just use the characters as-is. ie á é í ó ú. Then ǽ poses a bit of a problem. You could either leave æ in place on mainspace pages for consistency, or just accent ǽ. These accents as you know are to indicate stress, so are as you say an aid to speaking, which explains their absence in the small print. Likewise, with ℣ and ℟ , and ✠ you should leave these in place.

I can see that this poses a problem for some users tho, who might not have fonts containing ℣ and ℟ , and ✠ .

(2) Fonts: the idea with the templates is that users never see the abbreviations unless they want to. So for most people, they will not see them. Compare Pagina:Ars_Memorativa_(Leporeus).djvu/8 (transcription page) with Ars_Memorativa_Gulielmi_Leporei_Avallonensis/Gulielmus_Leporeus_Domino_Gulielmo_Iornoer (mainspace). users will look at the second of these, normally at least. These aren't set up yet for Arra aeternae salutis or Missale Romanum (1496). Let me know if you'd like help with that so you can see better how this is working for your transcriptions.

I have developed a means to toggle the abbreviations in the mainspace.

(3) Installation of fonts on Wikisource / ebooks: this ought to be doable, it's there for blackletter scripts I think. It's more relevant if the characters are visible in mainspace. Transcriptions (Liber / Pagina) don't matter so much to users. But of course for your Missal with ℣ and ℟ , and ✠, these are needed. Interesting that these were preserved!

(4) We can use the category for discussions for now; some point I should write up the whole system especially if you or others are using it. I know the documentation for the templates has slipped a bit. Regarding ℣ and ℟ , and ✠ in the Missal, the best place to have this discussion is at Vicifons:Scriptorium; I will open something up there for you. JimKillock (disputatio) 08:33, 24 Octobris 2025 (UTC)

p.s. Thank you for the several pages you edited of Arra Aeternis!!

No problem! Happy to help some more if it's useful! --JimKillock (disputatio) 08:35, 24 Octobris 2025 (UTC)